Posts by Joe Grundy

10

Individual Governing Body Members and Lawsuits

by jw07 in

i don't know if this has any legal implications:.

since the identities of the individual members of the governing body have been publicly confirmed (not that we didn't know that before) can that open the way for direct lawsuits to be leveled against members?.

for instance are there any laws in the usa that would open the way for geoffrey jackson to be targetted by the lawsuits from child abuse or no blood transfusion deaths?.

Joe Grundy

IMHO, it is always a good idea to include in a lawsuit individuals by name as well as the corporate identities they hide behind.

Here in the UK, at least, individuals are liable in a wide range of legislation, and it certainly concentrates minds when you tell people that they, personally, will be named in a lawsuit (and for example, local government is legally barred from indemnifying against or paying for legal costs of a local government officer).

Whilst organisations may have 'vicarious liability' for the actions of their officers/employees, etc., (watch them run backwards as fast as they can) courts, IME, like to cut through organisational claptrap.

Stand the individual up in court and watch then crap themselves/spread the blame would be my suggestion.

Assisted Reproduction = Adultery

by Joe Grundy in

http://cyprus-mail.com/2013/10/04/third-party-assisted-reproduction-is-adultery-says-church/.

when discussing 'church' doctrines, many people cite 'protestant' -v- 'catholic' etc., forgetting the 'orthodox' churches which split from rcc about 1,000 years ago in the 'great schism'.

the orthodox churches are as wacky and controlling in their way as any other (cf.

Joe Grundy

http://cyprus-mail.com/2013/10/04/third-party-assisted-reproduction-is-adultery-says-church/

When discussing 'church' doctrines, many people cite 'Protestant' -v- 'Catholic' etc., forgetting the 'Orthodox' churches which split from RCC about 1,000 years ago in the 'Great schism'. The orthodox churches are as wacky and controlling in their way as any other (cf. the current power of the Russian Orthodox as an ally and supporter of Putin).

As an ex-resident of Cyprus I follow the goings-on there with a bemused and cynical view. The Cypriot Orthodox church is autonomous because the grave of Lazarus was discovered there (after his second death) and is nowadays rightly regarded by most rational thinkers as as good an example of a wholly corrupt organisation as one could wish to meet. The current archbishop, Chrysystomos II, was elected through a shenanigans as corrupt as any in the 'worldly' world. A fine example for christianity, and to my cynical mind a parallel for what the GB is doing to JWs (except that the GB can only dream of the power that the church exerts in CY, where its influence over political elections is clear).

The article referenced above (sorry I don't know how to make it 'clickable') is a good example of the ludicrous statements that the church comes out with. I suspect that their thinking is not a million miles away from that of the GB, and just goes to illustrate the danger of religious groups.

6

Shunning - Not Just JWs

by Joe Grundy in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjmg69xmjp8.

this is a documentary from louis theroux on his return visit to westboro baptist chutch - as wacky a bunch as you'll meet.

but not that different, imho, as jdubs.. i never was a dub, but i hope as a human that i can share their pain.. being entirely secular here, it seems to me that some of the young ladies in the film need to experience 'worldly' love,.

Joe Grundy

Captian Obvious: Sorry for your pain.

One reason I posted this video is to demonstrate, perhaps, how crazy some religions can be. Many people might watch this and agree that they, and their practices, are crazy. They are a very small nutjob group. It doesn't take much imagination to scale this up to JWs and show just how crazy they are too.

With respect to exiting/fading/faded/successfully out IWs.

6

Shunning - Not Just JWs

by Joe Grundy in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjmg69xmjp8.

this is a documentary from louis theroux on his return visit to westboro baptist chutch - as wacky a bunch as you'll meet.

but not that different, imho, as jdubs.. i never was a dub, but i hope as a human that i can share their pain.. being entirely secular here, it seems to me that some of the young ladies in the film need to experience 'worldly' love,.

Joe Grundy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjmg69XmJp8

This is a documentary from Louis Theroux on his return visit to Westboro Baptist Chutch - as wacky a bunch as you'll meet. But not that different, IMHO, as jdubs.

I never was a dub, but I hope as a human that I can share their pain.

Being entirely secular here, it seems to me that some of the young ladies in the film need to experience 'worldly' love,

The comments re shunning will, I';m sure, strike home with many JWs - the crazy beliefs may strke home even more.

28

A View From Outside

by Joe Grundy in

jw
friends

i never was a jw, and in many ways my interest was academic.

i have known, and know, some jws and ex-iws and know something of (but not personally) the effects that wtbts has on people.

the effects, imho, are not positive.

Joe Grundy

My duty to respond, I think.

First - re 'cock'. Mouthy (Grace) has explained this. It is an expression I use myself, as in 'All right, cock?'. There are no doubt some hidden semantics somewhere (maybe the old cockney 'cock sparrer') but it's along the lines that I can call Grace 'duck'. No problems, no issues.

Second - my comments re 'dowdy' JW women were ill-chosen and I had no wish to cause offence. I am sure that there are JW 'hot chicks' (I haven't seen any) but what I wanted to convey was that the JWs I see doing FS are uniformly 'beige'. By that I mean that they share a look. Uninterested in what they are doing (elsewhere called the 'pioneer shuffle') and really not interested in talking about what they really believe - because IME they don't know what they really believe.

Third - no, I am not an 'evangelical' atheist, and I think very carefully before I say anything. I would hate to do anything which might contribute to the loss of faith of someone whose life, sanity, etc., depends on it. But if someone 'evangelises' to me, I respond.

I was a cop for 30 years, most as a detective, and for a significant part of that running a Fraud Squad. Con men (and women) were my stock in trade. The way to deal with them was (and remains, IME) to ask simple questions - who, why, when, how, etc. - and NOT be deflected by spurious crap. This approach works pretty well and can be applied (for example) when looking at Russell, Rutherford and others (as far as the JW history is concerned). Cut away the crap, look at the historical context, and challenge, challenge.

Apropos of nothing, I once arrested a local politician who had 'misclaimed' - stolen, in common parlance - £60k in fraudulent expenses. His explanations and justifications were a wonder to behold. But (though he hated them) the basic questions were simple. His answers were pure unadulterated crap. He went to prison. I think of him sometimes when I read of the GB floundering on child protection issues, etc. They are not much different.

I'm sorry if my OP was harsh. I have much sympathy for JWs, and I can't really know just how bad it is to live under their restrictions, the fear of shunning, etc. But I will, if I get the chance, oppose their 'ministry' just as I will that of any religion.

28

A View From Outside

by Joe Grundy in

jw
friends

i never was a jw, and in many ways my interest was academic.

i have known, and know, some jws and ex-iws and know something of (but not personally) the effects that wtbts has on people.

the effects, imho, are not positive.

Joe Grundy

"I do wonder, though, if it's effective to speak directly to JWs,"

IME, the adage is true - it's a waste of time to discuss religion with the religious.

Over the years, I think I have come to the Christopher Hitchens point of view - i.e. these people ARE my enemies, it is not sufficient to sit on the sidelines respectfully. Even though I and mine are not personally affected, in a way, we ARE affected adversely by the pervasive influence that religion brings to bear on the world in so many different ways.

28

A View From Outside

by Joe Grundy in

jw
friends

i never was a jw, and in many ways my interest was academic.

i have known, and know, some jws and ex-iws and know something of (but not personally) the effects that wtbts has on people.

the effects, imho, are not positive.

Joe Grundy

"Probably not a great idea to ridicule peoples religious beliefs."

To 'challenge' (as I said) is not necessarily to 'ridicule' - although IMO many religious beliefs are ridiculous.

It's an interesting point, though. Given that all religions are equally whacky, how big do they have to be before you treat them as more than a minor nuisance (e.g. JWs - though not a minor nuisance to the poor souls affected)?

28

A View From Outside

by Joe Grundy in

jw
friends

i never was a jw, and in many ways my interest was academic.

i have known, and know, some jws and ex-iws and know something of (but not personally) the effects that wtbts has on people.

the effects, imho, are not positive.

Joe Grundy

Mouthy: Hi honey - I was excluding you, of course.

If a lovely redhead, slim, with boobs, smiling and funny woman called at my door I would do my best in so many ways to show her how she was wasting her time in the dubs. (I might even let her know in a subtle way that I knew what the dubs taught and thus what she might be missing!). Theological arguments could follow.

GRACE! I need very little encoragement to misbehave. Behave yourself!

xx

28

A View From Outside

by Joe Grundy in

jw
friends

i never was a jw, and in many ways my interest was academic.

i have known, and know, some jws and ex-iws and know something of (but not personally) the effects that wtbts has on people.

the effects, imho, are not positive.

Joe Grundy

I never was a JW, and in many ways my interest was academic. I have known, and know, some JWs and ex-IWs and know something of (but not personally) the effects that WTBTS has on people. The effects, IMHO, are not positive. (I am using polite British understatement here when what I want to say is that the effects, as far as I can see, are wholly negative).

I try to keep up with latest teachings as far as I can (here on JWN and elsewhere) and to me - as an outside observer - they just seem to get whackier and whackier, requiring more and more indoctrination for the faithful to accept and believe.

I am an atheist but have always tended to think hard before I offer any comments which may challenge 'faith'. Some people need 'faith' and have been happy to live their lives accordingly. Not my place, I thought, to cause them to question.

BUT - reading the latest teachings, I find it hard to hold my tongue, and I have come to the stage that I have a duty to respond to the 'religionist JWs' who are so happy and/or compelled to push their message.

For example - I read the recent thread re women 'covering their head'. I was aware of this but had forgotten it. I passed it on to a female friend who is an activist in 'womens' issues'. Rest assured, this will be followed up and information spread.

Some of the stories I read here on JWN from women and the problems of grounds for 'scriptural divorce' ... well, say no more.

I have reached a personal decision. No longer will I pay 'respect' to any religion just because it is a religion. Lies deserve to be challenged, regardless. I DO feel sorry for some of the dowdy, downbeaten, dumpy JW women who call at my door (you'd have thought they'd have learned by now) but I also have to think of the vulnerable people who may be just up the road who may get sucked in by all this crap.

I am in contact off-board with a poster here who commented that she had had a good time and felt no guilt. As human beans we are ALL entitled to have a good time and feel no guilt. That WTBTS would wish to condemn this (as it surely does) is an indication of its purpose.

We are born, we do the best we can, we die. If we can help make someone happy along the way, that's a bonus.

19

South of England Annual Xmas Meal 2013

by cantleave in

jw
friends

in order to get a booking a little nearer to xmas (november wasn't quite pagan enough) we have booked the farmhouse burrfields road, portsmouth po3 5hh for 7th december @ 12 noon.

the restuarant wants a deposit of 5 per person payable in 2 weeks.

this booked up really quickly last year, so act promptly if you want to join in the merriment.

Joe Grundy

Any reasonably-priced accommodation in the area?